I saw this on the SC mailing list: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/09/fuck-chuck.html Too bad none of us are Real Musicians. brad http://music.columbia.edu/~brad
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Brad Garton
I saw this on the SC mailing list:
http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/09/fuck-chuck.html
Too bad none of us are Real Musicians.
"The difference between Archaeopteryx and ChucK is the difference between loving music vs. fantasizing about it while jerking off." He's totally wrong, that's not at all what I fantasize about when.. oh nevermind. Steve
*ChucK is for smart but lazy people who coast on their intelligence and don't care if they never make a difference in the world. * Guilty as charged. Well, ok, one shouldn't call oneself "smart", especially not when one makes as many stupid mistakes as I do... but still, laziness is supposed to be a prime virtue for programmers and I'm really quite lazy. I take lots of smoking breaks (some quite long, I've got tabacco pipes within reach), stare ahead of me, maybe scribble on a paper (in a way too lazy to care whether anyone will be able to read it) and then type as few lines as I can get away with. I tend to try to type them to cater to my laziness; Ideally I don't want to have to change them but if that should come to pass I hope it'll take as little efford as possible. ChucK is a great language for smart but leazy people, I hope this guy sends all such people our way, I read there are many. And well, making a difference in the world.... Very few people ever do (at least on a worldwide scale), and I kinda suspect that those who did/do were doing what they liked so setting out to "make a difference in the world" speciffically seems like a recipy for disapointment to me. Personally I'm happy to make a difference to a few people on a dancefloor for a hour or so, or perhaps provide with a new idea or two at a "listening concert". I'm content with that. *Fuck ChucK. *Let's see; I've got this feeling ChucK and me understand eachother quite well, we've been together for a few years now, spending many emotionally intimate sleepless nights, and probably will be for a at least a few years more... I'd almost wonder why we don't! It's probably my tendency to point out ChucK's weaknesses, that never goes over well in relationships... aside from this one, so far. This writer has another great point about MIDI; MIDI in ChucK could be made more accessible and more like the HID interface with more explicid ways to deal with MIDI clock and other non-three-byte-messages... It does seem a bit behind on the rset. But then again, I don't consider myself much of a "working musician" so perhaps I'm not allowed to speak. I may get paid but I tend to look at myself as a "playing musician" more then a "working" one... Great points all 'round and with a nice video of Plasticman as a somewhat unrelated bonus. I wasn't so much into this piece but I've got a soft-spot for the "concept" series so it was interesting to see what he's up to. I hope this guy (or gall) writes more on this subject, (s)he seems quite insightfull to me. Personally I've been "wanking my stick" while fantasising about music quite a lot, I even got to write a small text about it; http://leonardo.info/lmj/lmj18contribnotes.html (scroll down or search for my name). It's great! I wouldn't have it any other way. typically in the spur of the moment I don't love it, that comes with time or trusting in feedback but I don't see a problem with that, that seems borderline universal in artists. Cheers, Kas. **
What? Ritchie Hawtin doesn't use ChucK?!
Why weren't we told about this sooner?
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Kassen
I hope this guy (or gall) writes more on this subject, (s)he seems quite insightfull to me. Personally I've been "wanking my stick" while fantasising about music quite a lot, I even got to write a small text about it; http://leonardo.info/lmj/lmj18contribnotes.html (scroll down or search for my name). It's great! I wouldn't have it any other way. typically in the spur of the moment I don't love it, that comes with time or trusting in feedback but I don't see a problem with that, that seems borderline universal in artists.
Well, la-di-da, Mr "I've contributed to a well respected journal". Bet you went to university, too. Your sort make me sick. ;-) Seriously, though; this guy writes 'music AI' software and then resents it when people think that implies he might be interested in other experimental computer music programmes... well, I guess for his purposes it's good that his software revolves around a particular networking protocol... ChucK seems more concerned with time, which many of us find useful, but that must be because we've lost track of what music is about...
2008/10/7 Peter Todd
Seriously, though; this guy writes 'music AI' software and then resents it when people think that implies he might be interested in other experimental computer music programmes...
This guy is almost laughable the way he situates himself. Firstly, I don't see how probability distributions equates to 'music AI'. Claiming his drum pattern generator is somehow 'revolutionary' underlines how out of touch he is with contemporary music research. That sort of stuff was done in Max in the 1990s. Secondly, his presentation to the Ruby community on his software suggested that he, and they, are all part of 'the fringe'. I don't see how creating 4/4 drum patterns that emulate drum 'n' bass, using Reason, is in any way 'fringe'. Seems quite mainstream to me. But then, I went to university.
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Arne Eigenfeldt
2008/10/7 Peter Todd
Seriously, though; this guy writes 'music AI' software and then resents it when people think that implies he might be interested in other experimental computer music programmes...
This guy is almost laughable the way he situates himself. Firstly, I don't see how probability distributions equates to 'music AI'. Claiming his drum pattern generator is somehow 'revolutionary' underlines how out of touch he is with contemporary music research. That sort of stuff was done in Max in the 1990s. Secondly, his presentation to the Ruby community on his software suggested that he, and they, are all part of 'the fringe'. I don't see how creating 4/4 drum patterns that emulate drum 'n' bass, using Reason, is in any way 'fringe'. Seems quite mainstream to me. But then, I went to university.
Well, it is definitely laughable on many levels and really not even worth discussing here. But one thing that I do find interesting and legitimate about it is his reaction to people telling him what software to use. I'm sure, of course, that he took it out of context.. a 'hey you might be interested..', repeated too many times, to the point where it becomes misinterpreted as, 'hey there's this other software that does what you're doing but way better'.. and then i can see how getting annoyed would become reasonable. I used to talk to people after performances about what tools they are using and even making suggestions sometimes, but I've since learned that many people are happy with what they have, and like to stick with what they know, so that they can stop 'learning' and actually get artistic work done. There's something to be said for that. Now I more often just observe what people are doing and how they are using their tools and I try to learn from it, or think about what my take might be, and why it is that they like that particular interface. The 'dream' of creating a general interface that is perfect for everyone who makes electronic music is naive.. diversity in the music software ecosystem is key. Special tools for particular purposes can be just as useful as general-purpose tools like an audio programming language. And combining them is fun! That's why I like to use things like ChucK as the basis for custom interfaces for specific paradigms (i'm currently writing a chuck-based sequencer). I'm not all convinced this is what happened here, since that rant is a bit crazy, but I can see it. I don't actually think that rant is all that serious anyway.. if you look further in his blog he's got a quick post about how easy it was for him to write a quick drum machine in ChucK. Steve
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:58 PM, Stephen Sinclair
I'm not all convinced this is what happened here, since that rant is a bit crazy, but I can see it. I don't actually think that rant is all that serious anyway.. if you look further in his blog he's got a quick post about how easy it was for him to write a quick drum machine in ChucK.
It was about how easy it was for *me* to write a quick drum machine in ChucK (and some attacks on the manner I chose to present it). I responded because his words carry weight in the Ruby community and I wanted to put his ravings in perspective for people who know nothing about ChucK. Archaeopteryx and ChucK make an interesting combo, by the way. With a little work you can get ChucK to auto-reload in synchrony with Arx (on measure boundaries), and even close the loop with a minimal OSC server in Arx (with rosc or something). I've used it to make controller values available during rhythm calculation. -- Tom Lieber http://AllTom.com/
Stephen;
But one thing that I do find interesting and legitimate about it is his reaction to people telling him what software to use. I'm sure, of course, that he took it out of context.. a 'hey you might be interested..', repeated too many times, to the point where it becomes misinterpreted as, 'hey there's this other software that does what you're doing but way better'.. and then i can see how getting annoyed would become reasonable.
Yes, this could and does happen. People have come up to me and pointed out that my laptop isn't of a certain brand. Well, that's true and for good (to me) reasons. If you hear that 20 times then sooner or later somebody might become the victim of a rant. This happens. What I'm wondering about is where this guy is that has so many ChucKists. I don't meet that many... None of the SC or MAX/MSP users I met were like this about their system. Somewhere there must be a sort of huge cult of militant ChucKists that nobody knows? Isn't this a bit far-fetched? Why don't they come over for some relaxing crashes? Oh, well, it's funny, that puts it head&shoulders above most pages comparing programming languages. Kas.
I took the liberty of updating the "propaganda" page on the Wiki. That slogan was just too good to pass up. I realise that means linking to a page containing words one couldn't say on TV in some countries. I think it's worth it but do realise my politics tend towards the overly liberal, even for a Dutch guy. Is it about time to bring up the idea of making Tshirts again? Kas.
Has anyone checked if "this guy" is on this mailing list, considering he has programmed in ChucK, before expressing his opinions rather crudely on his blog, and may even be deriving some sort of pleasure from this discussion, which so far has been, not to put too fine a point on it, fairly pointless? :) It's a "small worlds", folks.
I'm sure he'd be very happy to see how effective his trolling has been. If
we made someone happy, how can it be pointless?
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:43 AM, AlgoMantra
Has anyone checked if "this guy" is on this mailing list, considering he has programmed in ChucK, before expressing his opinions rather crudely on his blog, and may even be deriving some sort of pleasure from this discussion, which so far has been, not to put too fine a point on it, fairly pointless? :)
It's a "small worlds", folks.
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2008/10/8 Peter Todd
What? Ritchie Hawtin doesn't use ChucK?! Why weren't we told about this sooner?
Nobody suspected, I suppose. I was shocked to hear this as well. for a while a few years back there were these wild rumours on the web that Hawtin used basically anything he could get his hands on but apparently he doesn't use ChucK, even if it's generally available and easy to get hooked on. (I like a lot of Hawtins work and respect him but this joke was too good to pass up). Well, la-di-da, Mr "I've contributed to a well respected journal". Bet you
went to university, too. Your sort make me sick.
I'll have you know that I actually went to *two* universities. One I attended for nearly a full year, the second almost double that. Still, I got must use out of my completely independent research on the culture around electronic dance music which I studied intensively. I am not ashamed to admit I put both my health and my sanity at stake in the name of academic pursuits.... and indeed like mr. Bowkett rightly points out my studies were often sponsored by various institutions. I am greatly indebted to the so called "free party" world as well as various private individuals who generously sponsorred my work out of their own pocket, typically also facilitating rather extended interviews in the process. Lately I've been invited for residencies in various laboratories where I have been suplied with extensive measuring equipment as well as test subjects in in increasing numbers and indeed been subsidised, allowing my to continue my studies. This is without even going into my research into video game interfaces One shouldn't brag but the simple truth is that I started serious research on this subject at a age where most people still struggle with math. I hadn't even hit puberty when my fame led fellow scollars to travel as far as three streets to consult me on this subject. This has indeed led to a rather estranged postion relative to the real world as compared to working musicians like mr. Bowkett. I'd like to be more like him, to get a real working career, to get extremely popular using techniques like insulting everybody who uses any other system as well as gay men and all women... but I don't think I could find my way out of my ivory tower if I wanted to. I can well understand your sentiments. (thanks)
Seriously, though; this guy writes 'music AI' software and then resents it when people think that implies he might be interested in other experimental computer music programmes... well, I guess for his purposes it's good that his software revolves around a particular networking protocol... ChucK seems more concerned with time, which many of us find useful, but that must be because we've lost track of what music is about...
Seriously, I haven't had the time to get as deeply into SMIRK as I'd like to but a quick read of the papers and some of the examples make me feel we are doing very well indeed in that field. Rebecca, Ge and Perry did a great job there, and it's just a small beginning. The MIDI could use a bit of polish but I'm fine with it. It works, if I don't want to I don't need to look at or touch my Nord Modular. MIDI is fairly universal, it works on most systems, it's relatively cheap... not bad (It's just various real-world interpertations that tend to lead to the desire to -well- kick some people in the shins) Frankly I'm missing the point of his anger. He posts Richie which is indeed a nice example of "rocking a dancefloor" and then the only examples of his work that I could find there look a bit like some of the more playfull accedemic proof of concept videos floating arround. Nice & playfull sound manipulation, not the best ever (to my tastes) but interesting to watch. Yours, Kas.
participants (7)
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AlgoMantra -
Arne Eigenfeldt -
Brad Garton -
Kassen -
Peter Todd -
Stephen Sinclair -
Tom Lieber