You are definitely right. I didn't mean to imply in any way that ChucK wasn't a good tool for doing things LIKE the Reactable, just that if you specifically wanted to work with the Reactable (or another device that spits out TUIO) then you would need to use a system other than ChucK (which is not to say that you couldn't have ChucK somwhere in the pipeline). Having said all that, ChucK is still my go-to system when I want to grab some OSC and turn it into sound. andy On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 8:47 AM, mike clemow wrote:

Hi,

...

While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Nothing a little glue code couldn't solve.  ;-)  There are also many other ways to get identity and position than those fiducials of the Reactable system.  I often use a camera and a little bit of the computer vision API that openFrameworks (or even Processing) provides.  You can get a lot of mileage out of those technologies without having to use what the Reactables people give you out-of-the-box, so to speak.

-Mike

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

Sadly, the Reactable and ChucK don't really play nice together. It uses a protocol called TUIO, which is based on OSC (OpenSoundControl). While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Hopefully protocols like TUIO (and it's use by the Reactable) will encourage someone in the ChucK developer community to look into addressing this issue. I keep meaning to have a look at the source code to try to figure out what's going on, but I never quite get that far.

For more discussion of this issue, check out this thread: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-138241.html

If you're interested in this type of thing then you should take a look at the "Tangible User Interface Hack Day" that took place a few weeks ago. There's some info over at CDM: http://createdigitalmotion.com/2009/06/18/tangible-interface-hackday-games-c...

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Hans Aberg wrote:

...

Another type of HID (a "Tangible User Interface"): the Reactable.

 Hans

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-RhyopUmc  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactable  http://mtg.upf.es/reactable/

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-- http://michaelclemow.com http://semiotech.org

Mark, that looks like a cool project. The solution of registering several handlers that accept different numbers of arguments is a good workaround, especially with the iPhone where you are limited to five touch points. I would still love to have a more general solution, but a pragmatic workaround moves things forward much better than a theoretical fix. By the way, I'm a big fan of OSCemote as well. But I did see that touchOSC now has a UI editor, so I may have to go back and give that another look. And I'm still playing with multi-touch web apps for the iPhone. andy On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Mark Cerqueira wrote:

Andrew, For my final project in PLOrk last semester I wrote a ChucK class to interface with the iPhone app OSCemote. The multitouch portion of OSCemote implements TUIO and I included that data in the OSCemote.ck class I wrote. The "The Internals" section goes over how I got TUIO to "work" in ChucK. It may need some tweaking, but it's a start at getting TUIO right in ChucK. The link to the wiki page on the project is:

http://wiki.cs.princeton.edu/index.php/PLOrk2009/MarkCerqueiraFinalProject

Best, Mark

On Jun 20, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

You are definitely right. I didn't mean to imply in any way that ChucK wasn't a good tool for doing things LIKE the Reactable, just that if you specifically wanted to work with the Reactable (or another device that spits out TUIO) then you would need to use a system other than ChucK (which is not to say that you couldn't have ChucK somwhere in the pipeline).

Having said all that, ChucK is still my go-to system when I want to grab some OSC and turn it into sound.

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 8:47 AM, mike clemow wrote:

...

Hi,

...

While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Nothing a little glue code couldn't solve.  ;-)  There are also many other ways to get identity and position than those fiducials of the Reactable system.  I often use a camera and a little bit of the computer vision API that openFrameworks (or even Processing) provides.  You can get a lot of mileage out of those technologies without having to use what the Reactables people give you out-of-the-box, so to speak.

-Mike

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

Sadly, the Reactable and ChucK don't really play nice together. It uses a protocol called TUIO, which is based on OSC (OpenSoundControl). While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Hopefully protocols like TUIO (and it's use by the Reactable) will encourage someone in the ChucK developer community to look into addressing this issue. I keep meaning to have a look at the source code to try to figure out what's going on, but I never quite get that far.

For more discussion of this issue, check out this thread: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-138241.html

If you're interested in this type of thing then you should take a look at the "Tangible User Interface Hack Day" that took place a few weeks ago. There's some info over at CDM:

http://createdigitalmotion.com/2009/06/18/tangible-interface-hackday-games-c...

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Hans Aberg wrote:

...

Another type of HID (a "Tangible User Interface"): the Reactable.

 Hans

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-RhyopUmc  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactable  http://mtg.upf.es/reactable/

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-- http://michaelclemow.com http://semiotech.org

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If anyone is interested I wrote some classes to interface with tuio protocol, a few years ago.. can't remember the state of it now, but I'm pretty sure it was working at the time. Probably now reactivision has evolve much more that then, but at least this may serve as a starting point for someone. http://www.lullcec.org/chuck/tuio-chuck.tgz -> forget about the c++ files you may find here http://www.lullcec.org/chuck/Tuio_chuck_cpp.tgz -> you have to compile this code and run it to send/receive messages to specific ports. Once compile run ./TuioReceiveSend [listening_port] [sending_port] hope is useful to anyone, eduard On Jun 21, 2009, at 6:51 PM, colin h wrote:

if chuck doesn't support an arbitrary number of arguments, then of course the "alive" messages are right out. however, i bet you could get something that worked well enough if you just listened to just the "set" messages which have a fixed parameter list. it wouldn't be full tuio of course, but would work well enough to have some fun with it.

-colin http://github.com/aberant/tuio-ruby/tree/master http://aberant.tumblr.com

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

Mark, that looks like a cool project. The solution of registering several handlers that accept different numbers of arguments is a good workaround, especially with the iPhone where you are limited to five touch points. I would still love to have a more general solution, but a pragmatic workaround moves things forward much better than a theoretical fix.

By the way, I'm a big fan of OSCemote as well. But I did see that touchOSC now has a UI editor, so I may have to go back and give that another look. And I'm still playing with multi-touch web apps for the iPhone.

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Mark Cerqueira

...

wrote: Andrew, For my final project in PLOrk last semester I wrote a ChucK class to interface with the iPhone app OSCemote. The multitouch portion of OSCemote implements TUIO and I included that data in the OSCemote.ck class I wrote. The "The Internals" section goes over how I got TUIO to "work" in ChucK. It may need some tweaking, but it's a start at getting TUIO right in ChucK. The link to the wiki page on the project is:

http://wiki.cs.princeton.edu/index.php/PLOrk2009/MarkCerqueiraFinalProject

Best, Mark

On Jun 20, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

You are definitely right. I didn't mean to imply in any way that ChucK wasn't a good tool for doing things LIKE the Reactable, just that if you specifically wanted to work with the Reactable (or another device that spits out TUIO) then you would need to use a system other than ChucK (which is not to say that you couldn't have ChucK somwhere in the pipeline).

Having said all that, ChucK is still my go-to system when I want to grab some OSC and turn it into sound.

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 8:47 AM, mike clemow wrote:

...

Hi,

...

While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Nothing a little glue code couldn't solve. ;-) There are also many other ways to get identity and position than those fiducials of the Reactable system. I often use a camera and a little bit of the computer vision API that openFrameworks (or even Processing) provides. You can get a lot of mileage out of those technologies without having to use what the Reactables people give you out-of-the-box, so to speak.

-Mike

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Andrew Turley wrote:

...

Sadly, the Reactable and ChucK don't really play nice together. It uses a protocol called TUIO, which is based on OSC (OpenSoundControl). While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Hopefully protocols like TUIO (and it's use by the Reactable) will encourage someone in the ChucK developer community to look into addressing this issue. I keep meaning to have a look at the source code to try to figure out what's going on, but I never quite get that far.

For more discussion of this issue, check out this thread: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-138241.html

If you're interested in this type of thing then you should take a look at the "Tangible User Interface Hack Day" that took place a few weeks ago. There's some info over at CDM:

http://createdigitalmotion.com/2009/06/18/tangible-interface-hackday-games-c...

andy

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Hans Aberg wrote: > > Another type of HID (a "Tangible User Interface"): the > Reactable. > > Hans > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-RhyopUmc > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactable > http://mtg.upf.es/reactable/ > > > _______________________________________________ > chuck-users mailing list > chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu > https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users > _______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

-- http://michaelclemow.com http://semiotech.org

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Tom Duff;

Reasonable support for TUIO has to go hand in hand with OSC support. TUIO is the killer app for OSC. Lots of extremely attractive devices use it, not just Reactivision, and being unable to exploit them without kludging around is really not good.

I count this as a ChucK bug, just like nonexistant garbage collection.

I largely agree with you though I think the term "bug" is a bit exaggerated, "unfinished" sounds better to me. We do need full OSC support and I'd like to see that combined with a plugin/include system. With that everyone could make their own objects that would use OSC, from TUIO to TIRP (Tom's Ice-cream Recipe Protocol). As I see things OSC depends on the sender and receiver agreeing on what data is being send and what it means, that would greatly benefit from published classes and so on. I could also imagine a version of HID that would deal with HID devices in a more raw way which coulkd then be wrapped in comunity made classes for more convenient consumption. I'm not sure the current way of dealing with HID is capable of scaling to the huge range of possible HID devices people might encounter; we can hardly expect Spencer to implement classes like "magic carpet controller" and so on just because they exist, that doesn't seem like a efficient way to use limited resources and time to me. Yours, Kas.

Hi,

I liked the way oscillators were connected, which is a bit ChucKish. But as for the interface, as one only has two hands usually, perhaps two spacenavigators (or something) might be even more efficient. One needs a method to select or create an item quickly, but then item can be manipulated using a usual HID. And then, of course, question is how to make music, and not just sounds out of it.

yeah, but you're really talking about the application rather than the technology. Reactables software give you a way to get orientation and position of objects on a table. What you do with it (including whether or not you decide to make sound at all with this information) is really up to you. Here's a table interface that only uses position: http://semiotech.org/wp-prod/?p=173 That's openFrameworks upfront and ChucK in the background making sound out of the position/shape of the objects on the table. Here orientation wasn't needed, and the objects' shadows were turned into grain clouds using granular synthesis. The two program spoke to each other using OSC and TUIO wasn't used at all. But a little bit of glue code with Reactables would be a lot less work than that project, which required a bunch of C++ programming on top of the synthesis code in ChucK. So, you have to pick your battles. I'm sure you can make something a lot more creative than that using a few clever kludges. ;) -Mike On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Hans Aberg wrote:

On 20 Jun 2009, at 17:47, mike clemow wrote:

...

...

While ChucK does have some support for OSC, TUIO uses messages that can have an arbitrary number of arguments, which ChucK's OSC receiver does not support.

Nothing a little glue code couldn't solve.  ;-)  There are also many other ways to get identity and position than those fiducials of the Reactable system.

I liked the way oscillators were connected, which is a bit ChucKish. But as for the interface, as one only has two hands usually, perhaps two spacenavigators (or something) might be even more efficient. One needs a method to select or create an item quickly, but then item can be manipulated using a usual HID. And then, of course, question is how to make music, and not just sounds out of it.

 Hans

-- http://michaelclemow.com http://semiotech.org

Hans,

I am really thinking about the usability of the interface for musical purposes. The Reactable TUI is a little like the Theremin, which is nice for making cool sounds with, but really hard for playing actual music (not intending a discussion about "what is music").

It's just an interface technology--not an application. You can place the fiducials on objects and the software will determine position and orientation of the object on the table. It also attempts to give you primitive touch (i.e. finger-finding) information. Now, what you DO with this technology--in other words: your particular application--can be judged as musical/non-musical or a good/bad application of the technology. So, if you design a theremin using the Reactables technology, then you'll have a table-top theremin. If you design a composition tool, then you'll be looking at it in a completely different light. I think that this conversation was really about ChucK's OSC implementation, which is not fully complete if you read the OSC spec. I'm unsure, however, where stuff like this falls in the priority list of the dev'rs. -Mike On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Hans Aberg wrote:

On 21 Jun 2009, at 06:01, mike clemow wrote:

...

...

I liked the way oscillators were connected, which is a bit ChucKish. But as for the interface, as one only has two hands usually, perhaps two spacenavigators (or something) might be even more efficient. One needs a method to select or create an item quickly, but then item can be manipulated using a usual HID. And then, of course, question is how to make music, and not just sounds out of it.

yeah, but you're really talking about the application rather than the technology.  Reactables software give you a way to get orientation and position of objects on a table.  What you do with it (including whether or not you decide to make sound at all with this information) is really up to you.

I am really thinking about the usability of the interface for musical purposes. The Reactable TUI is a little like the Theremin, which is nice for making cool sounds with, but really hard for playing actual music (not intending a discussion about "what is music").

 Hans

-- http://michaelclemow.com http://semiotech.org