-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 run away! csound scares me. i even tried it for a time, getting the parms in line and remembering what each inst used, that scared me. all the docs i read said that it had to look nice, all in columns, the p1s had to be right under p1s, not so hard for the first few, though that gets harder when you start getting up to p4s and on. i think the double nature of csound is not the best environment for someone with a speech synthesizer. chuck gets to make me confused on a whole other level entirely, has nothing to do with making stuff look pretty. with chuck, i get to be confused about the math and programming of sound. chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i wrong there? On 8/24/2011 8:36 AM, Antanas Budriūnas wrote:

Hi,

I guess what tempjayren has in mind is exactly CSound approach – two files 'orchestra' and 'score'.

Antanas _______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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my thoughts on indentation as regards screen readers, bad idea. unless you are using a multiline braille display, then it could work. unfortunately, i don't know of such a beast, though a single line braille display is expensive in itself, a multiline one would be worse, and probably best used by someone that had no ears as well as eyes, and that would make chuck coding rather silly to my way of thinking. On 8/24/2011 10:18 AM, Kassen wrote:

chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i

...

wrong there?

Not at all, no, whatever works for you is fine. Actually part of the whole point of ChucK is that it should be there for you, not for the computer. That said; I would take future usage of the file into account and try to make things clear for people who may read it in the future (maybe you in half a year <smile>). I could imagine that some forms of indentation would be especially good for working with screen-readers, I wonder whether any research has been done there.

Yours, Kas.

_______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

I think forcing indentation on someone (ala Python) is just wrong. This is unfortunate, since python seems like a very powerful language. You can get the screen reader to read out indentation (3 spaces, 5 spaces, etc), and I'm sure there are many blind folks out there who enjoy coding in Python, but I really wish indentation was not part of the language definition -- seems kind of like a step backward in language design (Fortran anyone)! I'm a screen reader user, and find indentation totally unnecessary. The way I deal with c-style languages is to mark my end braces with a comment: while (true) { // ... } // while I also tend to stay away from deeply nested code if I can. function f(x) { if (! x) return false; // more stuff } // f This last bit is obviously very contrived, but if you dispatch all tests for undesired conditions first and return, then you don't need deeply nested conditional blocks. Obviously, nested loops are quite another thing and if you need them, you need them. As for the multiline display -- I've been wanting one of those for as long as I've been programming. I have not tried it, but there is some sort of tactile mouse out there that will pop up braille as you move around, but this really doesn't help much. To get a real kinesthetic sense of layout, its very helpful to have two hands involved. Your brain is adapted for the use of both hands and can map this much more easily into sort sort of internal spacial image. I could not imagine trying to read a map with one finger. It would be very slow and tedious, and would defeat one of the purposes of having braille in the first place. Braille, like printed text or graphics, allows you to examine a static image. One of the inherent problems with speech, and this one-finger braille concept, is that the image is not static; it is essentially moving in time and requires you to build up a static image in your mind. Think of how difficult it would be to lood at a page of code through a straw, where all you can see is one symbol at a time. This is what its like listening to code, or anything really. Reading proes is sort of different in that your brain is adapted to this from birth from listening to spoken language, but code and other highly symbolic communication like mathmatics is very difficult to read via speech, or one-finger braille. Hopefully, I'll see a full-page braille display before everything goes 3D! Ah, one step forward, two steps back -- or maybe its two steps forward, and one step back! Depends when you ask... -- Rich -----Original Message----- From: Robert Poor Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:03 PM To: ChucK Users Mailing List Cc: ChucK Users Mailing List Subject: [chuck-users] Multiline Braille display I always thought the way to make a multiline Braille display was with a fingertip sized "mouse" that would actuate mechanical pins as you roll over a virtual page. You'd want the pins to have a much higher resolution than standard Braille so you could simulate smooth motion. Does anyone make anything like that yet? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2011, at 5:01 PM, tempjayren@gmail.com wrote:

my thoughts on indentation as regards screen readers, bad idea. unless you are using a multiline braille display, then it could work. unfortunately, i don't know of such a beast, though a single line braille display is expensive in itself, a multiline one would be worse, and probably best used by someone that had no ears as well as eyes, and that would make chuck coding rather silly to my way of thinking.

On 8/24/2011 10:18 AM, Kassen wrote:

...

chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i

...

wrong there?

Not at all, no, whatever works for you is fine. Actually part of the whole point of ChucK is that it should be there for you, not for the computer. That said; I would take future usage of the file into account and try to make things clear for people who may read it in the future (maybe you in half a year <smile>). I could imagine that some forms of indentation would be especially good for working with screen-readers, I wonder whether any research has been done there.

Yours, Kas.

_______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

---

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you wouldn't have had to have the nerve, it was the nerve of your friend that was important, because if he didn't have it, he wouldn't have felt the shock On 8/25/2011 12:47 AM, Robert Poor wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 21:29, Rich Caloggero wrote:

...

... One of the inherent problems with speech, and this one-finger braille concept, is that the image is not static; it is essentially moving in time and requires you to build up a static image in your mind. Think of how difficult it would be to lood at a page of code through a straw...

Uh, ten fingertip sized mice? <smile>

Actually, why not? It would be an worthwhile engineering challenge to get the spatial / temporal fidelity high enough that you forget that they're there. Just as long as they wouldn't stop you from typing or doing other useful things with your hands.

I had a blind friend who was a master audio engineer, and wanted me to build him a V.U. meter that he'd strap on his arm. I would have done it, except he really wanted electrical shocks rather than physical actuators. In retrospect, it probably just needed a constant current high-voltage supply, but I didn't have the nerve... _______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

and as promised, here is the research i've done on the multiline stuff. the first product is indeed multiline, the gwp one, this second one the modular braille display, i'm not so sure about this, though i believe it is. --- snip --- Graphic Window Professional (GWP) Graphic Window Professional - Click to enlarge. Graphic Window Professional: $10,990.00. View a picture of the Graphic Window Professional. Access to Graphics for the Blind The GWP enables the blind user to touch graphical information on the Windows desktop. The graphics are converted into tactile pictures of 24 x 16 tactile pins. GWP uses image processing methods to extract the most important information. The tactile graphics vary dynamically in real-time according to the changes on the screen. Explore the World of Graphics With the GWP, blind users can touch graphical information on the screen. An observation frame can be moved around the screen using arrow keys. The zoom function enlarges the display up to the most detailed view in which one tactile pin on the tactile display corresponds to a single pixel on the screen. For better orientation on the Windows desktop, the GWP provides an orientation mode where the position of the tactile matrix is displayed relative to the desktop. Furthermore, it is equipped with an overview mode to display the whole contents of the desktop. The functions of the GWP can be controlled by 8 user-definable function keys and a shift key. The tactile patterns are displayed by the GWP software on the screen for visual assistance. Using GWP in the Training Situation Especially during training, the GWP can be an important tool to teach the concept and layout of Windows. Abstract concepts of Windows such as icons in the toolbar can now be touched. The active window can be emphasized by a blinking border. Even real pictures can be touched with the GWP. With the information density control, the display on the matrix can be adjusted manually. At school, GWP opens up new ways of obtaining more information, for example by displaying function graphs, geometrical figures or boundaries of countries. Using GWP in the Office For professionals who need to be able to control the screen layout, GWP introduces new advanced possibilities for the blind user. Now it is possible to touch graphical results such as diagrams, for example progress of stock value or cake slice diagrams. Even for word documents and internet pages, the blind user can check and modify the layout independently. Graphical information such as the volume control in a record studio can be touched on the tactile display of the GWP. GWP in Combination with Handy Tech Braille Displays A Handy Tech Braille display with a GWP is the perfect combination for a professional workplace. Information on the screen can be touched simultaneously in Braille on the Braille display and with tactile graphics on the GWP. For example, when the mouse pointer is located on the printer icon, the GWP shows this icon as tactile graphics and the Braille display shows the word "printer" in Braille. Just as on a Braille display, the cursor position on the tactile display of the GWP is shown as a blinking dot. It is possible to choose between permanent and manual mouse tracking. Navigation functions With the arrow keys it is possible to shift the section of the screen shown on the tactile display. Besides up and down, left and right, is possible to navigate diagonally. The speed and the steps of the shifting movement can be selected via the GWP software. Zoom functions With the zoom keys located directly on the tactile display, it is possible to enlarge or reduce the section of the screen shown on the tactile display of the GWP. The range of zooming the screen section reaches from displaying the whole screen at once, down to the most detailed view of one dot on the tactile display corresponding to exactly one pixel on the screen. The zoom steps can be adjusted with the GWP software. Orientation mode When activated, the orientation mode displays the size and position of the tactile display on the screen by a rectangle of blinking dots. It is then possible to quickly locate the position of the tactile display on the screen. Overview mode When using the overview mode, the whole screen is shown on the tactile display of the GWP. The active window can be highlighted by a frame of blinking tactile dots. Adjusting the information density The information density determines the brightness level of the graphical information displayed on the tactile display, and is automatically determined by the software. When touching graphics with low contrast, it is possible to adjust the information density manually in 6 steps. Tracking the positioning When tracking the positioning of the mouse pointer is active, the GWP tracks the position of the mouse on the screen. If this is also linked to the position of the Braille display, the tactile display of the GWP and the text in Braille on the Braille display are linked together. Structure mode In addition to the graphical information on the screen, Windows system information is also interpreted by the GWP software when using the structure mode. This makes it possible to highlight the active window by blinking dots. Technical Data •16 x 24 dots tactile graphical display, matrix of equidistant (3mm) tactile dots. •2 zoom keys. •Serial port. •8 function keys. •Shift key. •Runs autonomously for 20 hours. •Quick charging (3 hours). •Dimensions: 4.3 inches x 3 inches x 8.3 inches (Width x Height x Length). •Weight: 2.2 pounds. Top of page Modular Evolution Modular Evolution - Click to enlarge. Modular Evolution 64: $10,990.00. Modular Evolution 88: $13,990.00. View a picture of the Modular Evolution. Ergonomics Meets Functionality Modular Evolution is designed for the professional blind user in their workplace. Adapted for your needs, Modular Evolution offers the perfect combination for you. Modular Braille Display The Braille display unit of the Modular Evolution is available with 88 or 64 Braille cells. This Modular Braille display is the first one to use the revolutionary Active Tactile Control (ATC) technology. ATC offers Braille readers new and more efficient ways to use a PC. In addition to ATC, the Modular Braille display offers the following control elements: •2 navigation keys (Left/Right), ergonomically placed across the whole width of the Braille display. •2 Triple Action keys, (Left/Right), integrated with the tactile area. •8 function keys (B1 – B4, B5 – B8). •88 or 64 cursor routing keys for placing the cursor at each Braille position. The Modular Braille display offers three additional USB ports. This allows you to directly connect a printer or scanner. With the 4 GB internal memory, all the applications and data are always available to you. Modular Keyboard The Modular Keyboard of the Modular Evolution is a complete PC keyboard which can be clipped onto the Braille display unit. The keyboard has tactile markings for blind users. The keys are labeled with high contrast (white on black) and can therefore be easily read by partially sighted users. Modular Braille Keyboard With the Modular Braille Keyboard you can enter text in Braille. It also offers complete control of the PC. In addition to the 8 ergonomic Braille entry keys (P1 – P8), the Modular Braille keyboard has a number pad as well as control and function keys. Modular Number Pad When clipped on to the Modular Evolution, the number pad offers additional functions. The 16 keys of the Modular number pad can be individually assigned. For example, as a telephone operator, you can use the number pad directly for dialling or switchboard functions. The One-Cable-Solution All components of the Modular Evolution can be clipped on to the Modular Braille display without the need for any annoying cables. When attached, the components have an electrically and mechanically stable connection. With just one cable the whole system of the Modular Evolution is connected to the PC via USB. There is no need to have cables all over your desk. The New Dimension of Braille Reading Active Tactile Control (ATC) The patent pending Active Tactile Control (ATC) enables you to control the PC directly with your reading position on the Braille display. This opens up a whole new world of controlling a PC for blind and visually impaired users. With the help of ATC for example, words or letters can be announced by the speech output. ATC even recognizes when the current line has been read completely and automatically scrolls to the next line without the need of pressing the reading keys. ATC is able to detect the reading position reliably even if several fingers are on the Braille display. ATC Assistance Functions For professional use of a PC, ATC offers several helpful functions: •Automatic Scrolling - When you have read the text on the Braille display completely, ATC automatically scrolls to the next position. •Speed Reading - A word is spoken when touching the first letter. •Read the Whole Line - The line will be read completely triggered by a touch on the Braille display. •Spelling when Reading Backwards - When reading a Braille character twice, it will be announced. •Interactive Learning with ATC. •Reading Single Characters - The letter at the reading position will be either announced immediately or with delay. •Read Word at the End - When the word has been read completely, it will be announced. This function is especially handy when learning a foreign language. •Analyzing the Reading Behavior - ATC allows you to monitor the handling of the Modular Evolution. Analyzing the reading behavior is especially helpful for the teaching environment while learning Braille. ATC Settings The various ATC options can be adjusted to your individual needs by using the settings menu. Perfect Ergonomics Only the Handy Tech Braille cells have the concave and sloped down shape. The tactile surface matches the finger tip perfectly while reading. Judge for yourself - the advantages right at your fingertips The Braille output of the Modular Evolution can be read with a natural and relaxed hand position which is especially important for power users. The cursor routing keys are integrated into the tactile surface, aiding with orientation. The up and down keys are placed where you need them when reading Braille. Technical Data: Modular Braille Display 88 •88 Braille cells. •684 (88*8) ATC sensors. •2 navigation keys. •2 Triple Action keys. •88 cursor routing keys. •8 function keys B1 - B8. •3 USB connections. •4 GB internal memory. •Dimensions: 25.3 inches x 2.4 inches x 10.4 inches (Width x Height x Depth). •Weight: 7.7 pounds. Technical Data: Modular Braille Display 64 •64 Braille cells. •512 (64*8) ATC sensors. •2 navigation keys. •2 Triple Action keys. •64 cursor routing keys. •8 function keys B1 - B8. •3 USB connectors. •4 GB internal memory. •Dimensions: 20.3 inches x 2.4 inches x 10.4 inches (Width x Height x Depth). •Weight: 6.4 pounds. Technical Data: Modular Keyboard •105 keys. •Tactile markings. •USB connection. •Dimensions: 20.3 inches x 1.7 inches x 6.8 inches (Width x Height x dDepth). •Weight: 2.2 pounds. Technical Data: Modular Braille Keyboard •8 Braille keys (P1 –P8). •2 space keys. •Function keys F1 – F12, Escape key, Numlog, ScrLog, Print. •Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Windows keys. •6 keys block, cursor keys. •Number pad 17 keys. •Dimensions: 9.8 inches x 1.8 inches x 6.5 inches (Width x Height x Depth). •Weight: 2.2 pounds. Technical Data: Modular Number Pad •16 keys B9 – B14, 0 – 9. •Dimensions: 5 inches x 1.7 inches x 6.8 inches (Width x Height x Depth). •Weight: 2 pounds. --- snip --- On 8/25/2011 12:29 AM, Rich Caloggero wrote:

I think forcing indentation on someone (ala Python) is just wrong. This is unfortunate, since python seems like a very powerful language. You can get the screen reader to read out indentation (3 spaces, 5 spaces, etc), and I'm sure there are many blind folks out there who enjoy coding in Python, but I really wish indentation was not part of the language definition -- seems kind of like a step backward in language design (Fortran anyone)!

I'm a screen reader user, and find indentation totally unnecessary. The way I deal with c-style languages is to mark my end braces with a comment:

while (true) { // ... } // while

I also tend to stay away from deeply nested code if I can.

function f(x) { if (! x) return false; // more stuff } // f

This last bit is obviously very contrived, but if you dispatch all tests for undesired conditions first and return, then you don't need deeply nested conditional blocks. Obviously, nested loops are quite another thing and if you need them, you need them.

As for the multiline display -- I've been wanting one of those for as long as I've been programming. I have not tried it, but there is some sort of tactile mouse out there that will pop up braille as you move around, but this really doesn't help much. To get a real kinesthetic sense of layout, its very helpful to have two hands involved. Your brain is adapted for the use of both hands and can map this much more easily into sort sort of internal spacial image. I could not imagine trying to read a map with one finger. It would be very slow and tedious, and would defeat one of the purposes of having braille in the first place. Braille, like printed text or graphics, allows you to examine a static image. One of the inherent problems with speech, and this one-finger braille concept, is that the image is not static; it is essentially moving in time and requires you to build up a static image in your mind. Think of how difficult it would be to lood at a page of code through a straw, where all you can see is one symbol at a time. This is what its like listening to code, or anything really. Reading proes is sort of different in that your brain is adapted to this from birth from listening to spoken language, but code and other highly symbolic communication like mathmatics is very difficult to read via speech, or one-finger braille.

Hopefully, I'll see a full-page braille display before everything goes 3D! Ah, one step forward, two steps back -- or maybe its two steps forward, and one step back! Depends when you ask...

-- Rich

-----Original Message----- From: Robert Poor Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:03 PM To: ChucK Users Mailing List Cc: ChucK Users Mailing List Subject: [chuck-users] Multiline Braille display

I always thought the way to make a multiline Braille display was with a fingertip sized "mouse" that would actuate mechanical pins as you roll over a virtual page. You'd want the pins to have a much higher resolution than standard Braille so you could simulate smooth motion.

Does anyone make anything like that yet?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2011, at 5:01 PM, tempjayren@gmail.com wrote:

...

my thoughts on indentation as regards screen readers, bad idea. unless you are using a multiline braille display, then it could work. unfortunately, i don't know of such a beast, though a single line braille display is expensive in itself, a multiline one would be worse, and probably best used by someone that had no ears as well as eyes, and that would make chuck coding rather silly to my way of thinking.

On 8/24/2011 10:18 AM, Kassen wrote:

...

chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i

...

wrong there?

Not at all, no, whatever works for you is fine. Actually part of the whole point of ChucK is that it should be there for you, not for the computer. That said; I would take future usage of the file into account and try to make things clear for people who may read it in the future (maybe you in half a year <smile>). I could imagine that some forms of indentation would be especially good for working with screen-readers, I wonder whether any research has been done there.

Yours, Kas.

_______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

---

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---

chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users _______________________________________________ chuck-users mailing list chuck-users@lists.cs.princeton.edu https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users

Here's some music from a very unsuspected source: richard feynman playing drums http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kqyMr6vYZc&feature=player_embedded The guy's awesome! -- Rich

Loosely related thoughts; It seems to me that while Python substitutes indentation for braces ChucK uses the "read left to right" strategy to remove (some) braces. This is interesting to me in this context; I write quite a lot of Scheme and because of the amount of braces there I think I would be unable to do that without highlighting; not really a friendly language for people with visual challenges. ChucK does away with some of that, as long as we have a linear signal-flow, but clearly not nearly with all of it. I don't think we would want to go that far because some structures in the code reflect structures in the sounds that we use. One possible approach to this could be using interface sonification instead of highlighting. Pitches could be used to indicate how deeply nested the cursor currently is, for example. This kind of sonification could be used a bit like those DJ programs work. By that I mean two "mixes" could be made, one aimed at the programmer, one meant to be recorded or broadcasted to a live audience. Just thinking out loud, Kas.

*>guess that means i can remove the directory and its contents called "learning python" though what language would be a good replacement? rather, what language that meets all the criteria of being free (or cheap), has tools that work with my screen reader, will compile, has plenty of teachable stuff from the aspect of the blind programmer/newbie, likely some stuff i'm forgetting here. Well, this is a tall order. Developer tools are the most difficult piece of the equation. They are usually highly visual and complex. Microsoft's dev environments are probably pretty friendly to Jaws and Window-eyes, but I believe they are expensive. I remember seeing something about free "express" versions of windows dev tools a few years back, but I was never able to get them installed and working properly. There is an open source editor which runs on Windows written by a blind programmer named Jamal Mazrui. Here's a URL and a little blurb about it. I was helping a blind student recently learn python and delved into this a bit. It looks pretty powerful and does have some facilities for making programming easier for screen reader users, but I work with javascript and html these days and find it overkill for what I do. ... http://empowermentzone.com/EdSharp.htm EdSharp is a full featured text editor that is friendly, powerful, and open source. It uses a standard Windows interface for an application that supports multiple document windows. Though intended for sighted users as well, it seeks to enhance productivity for users of the JAWS, Window-Eyes, or System Access screen readers by automatically verbalizing relevant information. These speech messages supplement default speech heuristics, providing confirmation or results of commands without the need for manually interrogating the screen. If JAWS, Window-Eyes, or System Access are not detected in memory, EdSharp uses the default SAPI voice, if available, which may be configured via the Speech applet in Control Panel. ... I use something called textpad. http://www.textpad.com/download/ It is not free, but you can evaluate it and pay if you like it; its only about 27 dollars. The version you want is 4.7.3; version five does not work with my screen reader (I use Jaws). This is a typical problem with software; it gets changed to make it more visually rich, and accessibility suffers. This editor is pretty simple, but it works for me. It does a few more things than the basic notepad and the price is right. To my way of thinking, the development tools usually get in the way more than they help, especially when just learning to program. If I could see, I might not feel this way, but as a screen reader user, all the tools I have tried have been so hard to use and so the interfaces so confusing that any help they may have provided to the programmer was soon lost in time and energy fighting with the stupid things... As a language, I actually like Javascript a lot. It is a full featured programming language, and because its built into a we browser, the user interface is built in. I think it might be an interesting way to get your feet wet as a programmer. If you do any serious Javascript programming, it’s a good idea to also use a library called jQuery: http://www.jQuery.com/ It makes many things much easier, especially UI type programming. If you want a more standard language - one which compiles and produces files you can run on the desktop, then I think Java is a good choice. There are many resources out there to help you get started, it uses standard c-like syntax (no indentation necessary), and for simple stuff you really don't need all the development tools - just a text editor will do. I do encourage you to check out Python though. Sounds like you've already gotten some tutorials on it, and if you get used to the indentation stuff from the outset, then perhaps it won't be such a big deal for you. Most screen readers like Jaws or Window-eyes have modes which will tell you about indentation, and as I mentioned above, the edSharp editor can help out in this regard as well. I'm not sure if the NVDA screen reader has an indentation mode, but based on the fact that it is coded in Python, I imagine it will have such a mode. The developers of this screen reader are blind, so I think if you learn to deal with Python early in your programming adventures, the indentation may not be such a big deal. I've been programmin g too long, and just find it annoying, but I have looked at Python and I can see its appeal. There are also languages like Ruby and PHP which are aimed more at website development (on the server end rather than the client like Javascript), but PHP can also be used on the desktop I believe (although this is not its strength); Ruby I'm not so sure... Not sure what the tactile mouse is called. Maybe google can help... As per the iPhone, I got to tell you I was very skeptical about it when I first heard about it, but having played with it a bit I find its interface very interesting. I still think that it would be difficult to get info from a map this way, mostly because the screen is so damn small and there is nothing really to feel. You might be able to get a vague sense of where things are in relation to other things, but I think the small size would be a show stopper, especially to people like me with rather large fingers. The iPad might be a better bet; I've not tried this however so have no opinion on it yet. Good luck, and do let me know how it goes. You're welcome to write me off list at rjc@mit.edu if you like. -- Rich -----Original Message----- From: tempjayren@gmail.com Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:47 AM To: ChucK Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [chuck-users] Multiline Braille display -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/25/2011 12:29 AM, Rich Caloggero wrote:

I think forcing indentation on someone (ala Python) is just wrong. This is unfortunate, since python seems like a very powerful language. You can get the screen reader to read out indentation (3 spaces, 5 spaces, etc), and I'm sure there are many blind folks out there who enjoy coding in Python,

i've actually done a small bit of looking in to this, it appears the screen reader nvda is actually coded in that language. but I really wish indentation was not part of the language

definition -- seems kind of like a step backward in language design (Fortran anyone)!

guess that means i can remove the directory and its contents called "learning python" though what language would be a good replacement? rather, what language that meets all the criteria of being free (or cheap), has tools that work with my screen reader, will compile, has plenty of teachable stuff from the aspect of the blind programmer/newbie, likely some stuff i'm forgetting here.

I'm a screen reader user,

really? what is your reader of choice? and find indentation totally unnecessary. The

way I deal with c-style languages is to mark my end braces with a comment:

while (true) { // ... } // while

I also tend to stay away from deeply nested code if I can.

function f(x) { if (! x) return false; // more stuff } // f

This last bit is obviously very contrived, but if you dispatch all tests for undesired conditions first and return, then you don't need deeply nested conditional blocks. Obviously, nested loops are quite another thing and if you need them, you need them.

As for the multiline display -- I've been wanting one of those for as long as I've been programming. I have not tried it, but there is some sort of tactile mouse out there that will pop up braille as you move around

really? what company makes that? i wanna have a go at their website and read about the thing. , but this really doesn't

help much. To get a real kinesthetic sense of layout, its very helpful to have two hands involved. Your brain is adapted for the use of both hands and can map this much more easily into sort sort of internal spacial image. I could not imagine trying to read a map with one finger

what about the iphone? this has the flat display that you touch, and with voiceover feedback, to my way of thinking, this would be equivalent to that map example you just mentioned. .

It would be very slow and tedious, and would defeat one of the purposes of having braille in the first place. Braille, like printed text or graphics, allows you to examine a static image. One of the inherent problems with speech, and this one-finger braille concept, is that the image is not static; it is essentially moving in time and requires you to build up a static image in your mind. Think of how difficult it would be to lood at a page of code through a straw, where all you can see is one symbol at a time. This is what its like listening to code, or anything really. Reading proes is sort of different in that your brain is adapted to this from birth from listening to spoken language, but code and other highly symbolic communication like mathmatics is very difficult to read via speech, or one-finger braille.

Hopefully, I'll see a full-page braille display before everything goes 3D! Ah, one step forward, two steps back -- or maybe its two steps forward, and one step back! Depends when you ask...

-- Rich

-----Original Message----- From: Robert Poor Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:03 PM To: ChucK Users Mailing List Cc: ChucK Users Mailing List Subject: [chuck-users] Multiline Braille display

I always thought the way to make a multiline Braille display was with a fingertip sized "mouse" that would actuate mechanical pins as you roll over a virtual page. You'd want the pins to have a much higher resolution than standard Braille so you could simulate smooth motion.

Does anyone make anything like that yet?

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2011, at 5:01 PM, tempjayren@gmail.com wrote:

...

my thoughts on indentation as regards screen readers, bad idea. unless you are using a multiline braille display, then it could work. unfortunately, i don't know of such a beast, though a single line braille display is expensive in itself, a multiline one would be worse, and probably best used by someone that had no ears as well as eyes, and that would make chuck coding rather silly to my way of thinking.

...

chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i

...

wrong there?

Not at all, no, whatever works for you is fine. Actually part of the whole point of ChucK is that it should be there for you, not for the computer. That said; I would take future usage of the file into account and try to make things clear for people who may read it in the future (maybe you in half a year <smile>). I could imagine that some forms of indentation would be especially good for working with screen-readers, I wonder whether any research has been done there.

Yours, Kas.

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On 25 Aug 2011, at 05:03, Robert Poor wrote:

I always thought the way to make a multiline Braille display was with a fingertip sized "mouse" that would actuate mechanical pins as you roll over a virtual page. You'd want the pins to have a much higher resolution than standard Braille so you could simulate smooth motion.

Does anyone make anything like that yet?

A fruity company is investigating screens with electrical feedback to the finger-tips, for the screen keyboard.

Sent from my iPhone

They make that too. So soon, perhaps your fingers might be zapped. :-) Hans