[chuck-users] Multiline Braille display

Fri Aug 26 00:47:22 EDT 2011

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On 8/25/2011 12:29 AM, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> I think forcing indentation on someone (ala Python) is just wrong.
> This is unfortunate, since python seems like a very powerful
> language. You can get the screen reader to read out indentation (3
> spaces, 5 spaces, etc), and I'm sure there are many blind folks out
> there who enjoy coding in Python,

i've actually done a small bit of looking in to this, it appears the
screen reader nvda is actually coded in that language.

 but I really wish indentation was not part of the language
> definition -- seems kind of like a step backward in language
> design (Fortran anyone)!

guess that means i can remove the directory and its contents called
"learning python" though what language would be a good replacement?
rather, what language that meets all the criteria of being free (or
cheap), has tools that work with my screen reader, will compile, has
plenty of teachable stuff from the aspect of the blind
programmer/newbie, likely some stuff i'm forgetting here.

> 
> I'm a screen reader user,

really? what is your reader of choice?

 and find indentation totally unnecessary. The
> way I deal with c-style languages is to mark my end braces with a
> comment:
> 
> while (true) { // ... } // while
> 
> I also tend to stay away from deeply nested code if I can.
> 
> function f(x) { if (! x) return false; // more stuff } // f
> 
> This last bit is obviously very contrived, but if you dispatch all
> tests for undesired conditions first and return, then you don't
> need deeply nested conditional blocks. Obviously, nested loops are
> quite another thing and if you need them, you need them.
> 
> As for the multiline display -- I've been wanting one of those for
> as long as I've been programming. I have not tried it, but there is
> some sort of tactile mouse out there that will pop up braille as
> you move around

really? what company makes that? i wanna have a go at their website
and read about the thing.

, but this really doesn't
> help much. To get a real kinesthetic sense of layout, its very
> helpful to have two hands involved. Your brain is adapted for the
> use of both hands and can map this much more easily into sort sort
> of internal spacial image. I could not imagine trying to read a map
> with one finger

what about the iphone? this has the flat display that you touch, and
with voiceover feedback, to my way of thinking, this would be
equivalent to that map example you just mentioned.

.
> It would be very slow and tedious, and would defeat one of the
> purposes of having braille in the first place. Braille, like
> printed text or graphics, allows you to examine a static image. One
> of the inherent problems with speech, and this one-finger braille
> concept, is that the image is not static; it is essentially moving
> in time and requires you to build up a static image in your mind.
> Think of how difficult it would be to lood at a page of code
> through a straw, where all you can see is one symbol at a time.
> This is what its like listening to code, or anything really.
> Reading proes is sort of different in that your brain is adapted to
> this from birth from listening to spoken language, but code and
> other highly symbolic communication like mathmatics is very 
> difficult to read via speech, or one-finger braille.
> 
> Hopefully, I'll see a full-page braille display before everything
> goes 3D! Ah, one step forward, two steps back -- or maybe its two
> steps forward, and one step back! Depends when you ask...
> 
> -- Rich
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Robert Poor Sent: Wednesday,
> August 24, 2011 11:03 PM To: ChucK Users Mailing List Cc: ChucK
> Users Mailing List Subject: [chuck-users] Multiline Braille
> display
> 
> I always thought the way to make a  multiline Braille display was
> with a fingertip sized "mouse" that would actuate mechanical pins
> as you roll over a virtual page. You'd want the pins to have a much
> higher resolution than standard Braille so you could simulate
> smooth motion.
> 
> Does anyone make anything like that yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 24, 2011, at 5:01 PM, tempjayren at gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> my thoughts on indentation as regards screen readers, bad idea.
>> unless you are using a multiline braille display, then it could
>> work. unfortunately, i don't know of such a beast, though a
>> single line braille display is expensive in itself, a multiline
>> one would be  worse, and probably best used by someone that had
>> no ears as well as eyes,  and that would make chuck coding rather
>> silly to my way of thinking.
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/24/2011 10:18 AM, Kassen wrote:
>>> chuck doesn't seem to care about how .ck files look, or am i
>>>> wrong there?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Not at all, no, whatever works for you is fine. Actually part
>>> of  the whole point of ChucK is that it should be there for
>>> you, not for the computer. That said; I would take future usage
>>> of the file into account and try to make things clear for
>>> people who may read it in the future (maybe you in half a year
>>> <smile>). I could imagine that some forms of  indentation 
>>> would be especially good for working with screen-readers, I
>>> wonder  whether any research has been done there.
>>> 
>>> Yours, Kas.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ chuck-users
>>> mailing list chuck-users at lists.cs.princeton.edu 
>>> https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users
>> _______________________________________________ chuck-users
>> mailing list chuck-users at lists.cs.princeton.edu 
>> https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/mailman/listinfo/chuck-users
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